will you ppl continue to use del.icio.us if microsoft will buy yahoo? (--eom)

will you ppl continue to use del.icio.us if microsoft will buy yahoo?

Ognjen Strpic

2008-02-02 00:30:57 UTC

Post by Nenad Romic - Marcell
will you ppl continue to use del.icio.us if microsoft will buy yahoo?

This a trick question, right?

O.

stephenbungert

2008-02-02 06:28:55 UTC

So long as they ***@t make it look and function like windows live
favourites, I don't plan on switching....

And as long as the url wo my bookmarks stays the same:
deli.icio.us/username I'm still a user.

When and if it becomes somethong like my old hotmail address:
http://by111w.bay111.favourites.live.com/del.icio.us/bookmarks.aspx?wa=wsignin1.0&n=2342342&gs=true

Then I'll look at something else :-)

Giacomo Lacava

2008-02-03 00:41:08 UTC

If del.icio.us keeps providing the good (if quirky) service we all
know, yes I'll keep using it.
If it becomes a Windows-only "Live" service, I'll have to stop as my
target platform is not that one.

Post by Nenad Romic - Marcell
will you ppl continue to use del.icio.us if microsoft will buy yahoo?
Yahoo! Groups Links

--
Giacomo Lacava

Ognjen Strpic

2008-02-03 08:08:32 UTC

Post by Nenad Romic - Marcell
will you ppl continue to use del.icio.us if microsoft will buy yahoo?

... a less depressing thought: I wonder how much would it cost for the
community of users and developers to buy the bloody thing from whoever
currently owns it.

To my surprise, I realized I've become somewhat emotionally involved
in del.icio.us, and that the attachment apparently grows with extended
use. I'm far more frustrated now than I was when Yahoo bought it, and
although outlandish, the idea of co-ownership of del.icio.us/ognjen
sounds quite comforting.

Young master Joshua, Lady Britta, lead the way!

Ognjen

PS
Yes, I am aware I'm daydreaming. I wanted to share this one, though.

Matthew Weymar

2008-02-03 09:12:11 UTC

Post by Nenad Romic - Marcell
will you ppl continue to use del.icio.us if microsoft will buy yahoo?

... a less depressing thought: I wonder how much would it cost for the
community of users and developers to buy the bloody thing from whoever
currently owns it.

Y! owns it - as far as the public knows anyway - or does someone know
otherwise?

Re $ - I think the number that went around when Joshua sold was $25mm. No
idea about the accuracy of that.

Presumably it's worth more now(?...)

Post by Ognjen Strpic
To my surprise, I realized I've become somewhat emotionally involved
in del.icio.us, and that the attachment apparently grows with extended
use. I'm far more frustrated now than I was when Yahoo bought it,

But if you're in copious company in this frustration, maybe it's worth *less
*(?...)

This seems unlikely. Cf. Clay Shirky's claim that what distinguishes Y! from
its rivals (read: GOOG) is Y!'s appreciation of social software:
http://www.forbes.com/2008/02/01/solutions-msft-shirky-oped-cx_csh_0201shirky.html

One might well ask, "Well, where has *that* gotten them?!..." but he may be
right. Still, the cases in point are Flickr & del.icio.us - two *
acquisitions*. (To be fair, he also mentions Y! Groups, an in-house
development.) In any case, I think it's still fair to ask what Y! is really
good at on its own - other than being able to recognize (unprofitable)
social software co's.

Post by Ognjen Strpic
and
although outlandish, the idea of co-ownership of del.icio.us/ognjen
sounds quite comforting.

Have you seen https://secure.del.icio.us/settings/ognjen/bookmarks/license?

"del.icio.us does not own your bookmarks -- you do!"

Question: Might that give us all, collectively, some rights over the
platform that is "del.icio.us?..." Over its maintenance? Its alteration? Its
continued operation?... Its sale perhaps???...

Is anyone aware of any legal precedent that is relevant to answering this
question? *Someone's* got to be working on this.

At its core, one basis for the argument might be: *Not* having any rights
over "del.icio.us" (again, whatever *that *means) would render our
respective ownership rights over our bookmarks meaningless. (There must be a
proper legal phrasing of this concept[?...]) We generally don't do that to
property rights - even intellectual property rights....

I guess the counter-argument would be: Well, all we really mean by that is
that Y! can't sell your bookmarks, say. I.e., you may have a "negative
right" to prevent others from positive action with respect to your
bookmarks; but you may not have a "positive right" to do anything in
particular with your bookmarks yourself....

But presumably Y! can sell advertising on pages that display your
bookmarks(?... Another issue.)

Interesting stuff....

Thanks for the post, Ognjen.

Matthew

Post by Ognjen Strpic
Young master Joshua, Lady Britta, lead the way!
Ognjen
PS
Yes, I am aware I'm daydreaming. I wanted to share this one, though.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Matthew Weymar

2008-02-03 17:15:23 UTC

FYI - Potentially interesting reading / place to post on this topic:

-
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/flickr-users-consider-their-potential-microsoft-overlords/
- http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/bits-debate:-copyright/

Matthew

Post by Nenad Romic - Marcell
will you ppl continue to use del.icio.us if microsoft will buy yahoo?

... a less depressing thought: I wonder how much would it cost for the
community of users and developers to buy the bloody thing from whoever
currently owns it.

Y! owns it - as far as the public knows anyway - or does someone know
otherwise?
Re $ - I think the number that went around when Joshua sold was $25mm. No
idea about the accuracy of that.
Presumably it's worth more now(?...)

But if you're in copious company in this frustration, maybe it's worth *
less*(?...)
This seems unlikely. Cf. Clay Shirky's claim that what distinguishes Y!
http://www.forbes.com/2008/02/01/solutions-msft-shirky-oped-cx_csh_0201shirky.html
One might well ask, "Well, where has *that* gotten them?!..." but he may
be right. Still, the cases in point are Flickr & del.icio.us - two *
acquisitions*. (To be fair, he also mentions Y! Groups, an in-house
development.) In any case, I think it's still fair to ask what Y! is really
good at on its own - other than being able to recognize (unprofitable)
social software co's.

Post by Ognjen Strpic
and
although outlandish, the idea of co-ownership of del.icio.us/ognjen
sounds quite comforting.

Have you seen https://secure.del.icio.us/settings/ognjen/bookmarks/license
?
"del.icio.us does not own your bookmarks -- you do!"
Question: Might that give us all, collectively, some rights over the
platform that is "del.icio.us?..." Over its maintenance? Its alteration?
Its continued operation?... Its sale perhaps???...
Is anyone aware of any legal precedent that is relevant to answering this
question? *Someone's* got to be working on this.
At its core, one basis for the argument might be: *Not* having any rights
over "del.icio.us" (again, whatever *that *means) would render our
respective ownership rights over our bookmarks meaningless. (There must be a
proper legal phrasing of this concept[?...]) We generally don't do that to
property rights - even intellectual property rights....
I guess the counter-argument would be: Well, all we really mean by that is
that Y! can't sell your bookmarks, say. I.e., you may have a "negative
right" to prevent others from positive action with respect to your
bookmarks; but you may not have a "positive right" to do anything in
particular with your bookmarks yourself....
But presumably Y! can sell advertising on pages that display your
bookmarks(?... Another issue.)
Interesting stuff....
Thanks for the post, Ognjen.
Matthew

Post by Ognjen Strpic
Young master Joshua, Lady Britta, lead the way!
Ognjen
PS
Yes, I am aware I'm daydreaming. I wanted to share this one, though.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Otis Gospodnetić

2008-02-05 19:00:45 UTC

Small correction regarding Y! Groups. Y! Groups was not built
in-house - it's based on the eGroups acquisition from a whiiiiiile back.

Otis
--
Simpy -- http://www.simpy.com/ -- Tag. Search. Share.

Post by Nenad Romic - Marcell
will you ppl continue to use del.icio.us if microsoft will buy yahoo?

... a less depressing thought: I wonder how much would it cost for the
community of users and developers to buy the bloody thing from whoever
currently owns it.

Y! owns it - as far as the public knows anyway - or does someone know
otherwise?
Re $ - I think the number that went around when Joshua sold was $25mm. No
idea about the accuracy of that.
Presumably it's worth more now(?...)

But if you're in copious company in this frustration, maybe it's worth *less
*(?...)
This seems unlikely. Cf. Clay Shirky's claim that what distinguishes Y! from

http://www.forbes.com/2008/02/01/solutions-msft-shirky-oped-cx_csh_0201shirky.html

Post by Matthew Weymar
One might well ask, "Well, where has *that* gotten them?!..." but he may be
right. Still, the cases in point are Flickr & del.icio.us - two *
acquisitions*. (To be fair, he also mentions Y! Groups, an in-house
development.) In any case, I think it's still fair to ask what Y! is really
good at on its own - other than being able to recognize (unprofitable)
social software co's.

Post by Ognjen Strpic
and
although outlandish, the idea of co-ownership of del.icio.us/ognjen
sounds quite comforting.

Have you seen

https://secure.del.icio.us/settings/ognjen/bookmarks/license?

Post by Matthew Weymar
"del.icio.us does not own your bookmarks -- you do!"
Question: Might that give us all, collectively, some rights over the
platform that is "del.icio.us?..." Over its maintenance? Its

alteration? Its

Post by Matthew Weymar
continued operation?... Its sale perhaps???...
Is anyone aware of any legal precedent that is relevant to answering this
question? *Someone's* got to be working on this.
At its core, one basis for the argument might be: *Not* having any rights
over "del.icio.us" (again, whatever *that *means) would render our
respective ownership rights over our bookmarks meaningless. (There must be a
proper legal phrasing of this concept[?...]) We generally don't do that to
property rights - even intellectual property rights....
I guess the counter-argument would be: Well, all we really mean by that is
that Y! can't sell your bookmarks, say. I.e., you may have a "negative
right" to prevent others from positive action with respect to your
bookmarks; but you may not have a "positive right" to do anything in
particular with your bookmarks yourself....
But presumably Y! can sell advertising on pages that display your
bookmarks(?... Another issue.)
Interesting stuff....
Thanks for the post, Ognjen.
Matthew

Post by Ognjen Strpic
Young master Joshua, Lady Britta, lead the way!
Ognjen
PS
Yes, I am aware I'm daydreaming. I wanted to share this one, though.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ognjen Strpic

2008-02-06 09:00:30 UTC

Post by Ognjen Strpic
... a less depressing thought: I wonder how much would it cost for the
community of users and developers to buy the bloody thing from whoever
currently owns it.

Y! owns it - as far as the public knows anyway - or does someone know
otherwise?

Dear Matthew, thank you for your replies, and your sympathy.

Yahoo owns del.icio.us, AFAIK. "Whoever" part implied that it's not
really the point. A company owns it, and it has every right to do with
it as it pleases (or has to do given its business circumstances).

Post by Matthew Weymar
Cf. Clay Shirky's claim that what distinguishes

Y! from

Post by Matthew Weymar
its rivals (read: GOOG) is Y!'s appreciation of social software

To their credit, I think Yahoo has been an impeccable host to
del.icio.us. With Yahoo, it gained speed, it is now more reliable than
ever, the search finally became really useful. And all that without a
single gaffe on behalf of its users, not to mention prompt, civil and
informative user support.

Post by Matthew Weymar
Have you seen

https://secure.del.icio.us/settings/ognjen/bookmarks/license?

Post by Matthew Weymar
"del.icio.us does not own your bookmarks -- you do!"

Yes, I know, that was one of first things I looked for when I started
using it. But who owns my network? Who owns their networks, which I
occasionally browse, sometimes to a third or fourth degree? What seems
to be the problem here isn't the licensing policy of del.icio.us. My
own bookmarks are hardly the only thing I'm here for. Del.icio.us
(service and users) created a certain context which I found extremely
useful and pleasurable.

I'm not really worried about my bookmarks. I back them up more or less
regularly anyway, both on my disk and at Otis' simpy.com. But I'm
going to miss the context. As far as my bookmarks are concerned, MS
can use them already, just like anyone else. However, I would not
entrust Microsoft to manage the context of del.icio.us, and I
thoroughly lack the goodwill to contribute to MS. So, Marcell,
no, I wouldn't want to use del.icio.us if it were under Microsoft's
rule. I certainly wouldn't need to -- alternatives do exist which
aren't necessarily any worse. But I would miss del.icio.us (once
again, the context) because I feel I'm part of it.

On a practical side, I can always follow members of my network by
RSS without even logging in.

Post by Matthew Weymar
Question: Might that give us all, collectively, some rights over the
platform that is "del.icio.us?..." Over its maintenance? Its

alteration? Its

That's precisely what I was thinking about. What may be sold aren't
our bookmarks, and yet our bookmarking is what makes del.icio.us a
valuable property. Go figure.

As it is, current business logic of social networks goes along these
lines: users contribute their content in exchange for the service, and
service provider (aka owner) has every right to enjoy all his property
rights, selling the service included. Contributors (aka users) reserve
the right not to contribute, and prospective buyer takes the risk of
providing (aka owning) the service without content in case we, the
contributors, pull out our content.

It isn't entirely unfair, admittedly, but I'm still not happy with it.
Business is not what we're really talking about, is it?

Best,
Ognjen

Ognjen Strpic

2008-02-07 08:43:21 UTC

This was my reply to Matthew's post at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ydn-delicious/message/1807 . I posted
it through web-interface about 24 hours ago. Sorry for re-posting should
it eventually come through.

O.

--------------------------------------------

Post by Ognjen Strpic
... a less depressing thought: I wonder how much would it cost for
the community of users and developers to buy the bloody thing from
whoever currently owns it.

Y! owns it - as far as the public knows anyway - or does someone know
otherwise?

Post by Matthew Weymar
Cf. Clay Shirky's claim that what distinguishes Y! from its rivals
(read: GOOG) is Y!'s appreciation of social software

Post by Matthew Weymar
Have you seen

https://secure.del.icio.us/settings/ognjen/bookmarks/license?

Post by Matthew Weymar
"del.icio.us does not own your bookmarks -- you do!"

Yes, I know, that was one of first things I looked for when I started
using it. But who owns my network? Who owns their networks, which I
occasionally browse, sometimes to a third or fourth degree? What seems
to be the problem here isn't the licensing policy of del.icio.us. My own
bookmarks are hardly the only thing I'm here for. Del.icio.us (service
and users) created a certain context which I found extremely useful and
pleasurable.

I'm not really worried about my bookmarks. I back them up more or less
regularly anyway, both on my disk and at Otis' simpy.com. But I'm going
to miss the context. As far as my bookmarks are concerned, MS can use
them already, just like anyone else. There's no way, however, I could
entrust Microsoft to manage the context of del.icio.us, and I thoroughly
lack the goodwill to contribute to Microsoft. So, Marcell, no, I
wouldn't want to use del.icio.us if it were under Microsoft's rule. I
certainly wouldn't need to -- there are alternatives. But I would miss
del.icio.us (once again, the context) because I feel I'm part of it.

On the practical side, I can always follow members of my network by RSS
without even logging in.

Post by Matthew Weymar
Question: Might that give us all, collectively, some rights over the
platform that is "del.icio.us?..." Over its maintenance? Its
alteration? Its continued operation?... Its sale perhaps???...
Is anyone aware of any legal precedent that is relevant to answering
this question? *Someone's* got to be working on this.
At its core, one basis for the argument might be: *Not* having any
rights over "del.icio.us" (again, whatever *that *means) would render
our respective ownership rights over our bookmarks meaningless.

That's precisely what I was thinking about. What may be sold aren't our
bookmarks, and yet our bookmarking is what makes del.icio.us a valuable
property. Go figure :)

As it is, current business logic of social networks goes along these
lines: users contribute their content in exchange for the service, and
service provider (aka owner) has every right to enjoy all his property
rights, selling the service included. Contributors (aka users) reserve
the right not to contribute, and prospective buyer takes the risk of
providing (aka owning) the service without content in case we, the
contributors, pull out our content.

Admittedly, it isn't entirely unfair, but I'm still not happy with it.

Best,
Ognjen

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nothingnormal.xanga

2008-02-03 09:11:30 UTC

I think the attachment to del.icico.us comes from the personal nature
of tagging. You discover something useful and you tag it so that you
can go back and use it when you need to and share with those you wish
to share it with.

I love del.icio.us i wouldnt like ms to have it, honestly.

Post by Nenad Romic - Marcell
will you ppl continue to use del.icio.us if microsoft will buy yahoo?

... a less depressing thought: I wonder how much would it cost for the
community of users and developers to buy the bloody thing from whoever
currently owns it.
To my surprise, I realized I've become somewhat emotionally involved
in del.icio.us, and that the attachment apparently grows with extended
use. I'm far more frustrated now than I was when Yahoo bought it, and
although outlandish, the idea of co-ownership of del.icio.us/ognjen
sounds quite comforting.
Young master Joshua, Lady Britta, lead the way!
Ognjen
PS
Yes, I am aware I'm daydreaming. I wanted to share this one, though.

Otis Gospodnetić

2008-02-05 19:03:52 UTC

Ognjen,

While I completely understand your worry about MS swallowing Y! and
del.icio.us with it, you can really always export your bookmarks. You
then have the usual choices:
- back to your browser
- go to an alternative service, there are plenty of choices.

Your bookmarks are yours (though nothing guarantees that somebody else
doesn't already have a copy of them -- but that's okay, they are all
public anyway).

Otis
--
Simpy -- http://www.simpy.com/ -- Tag. Search. Share.